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Irresistible Force is a site dedicated to Warhammer Fantasy , the table top fantasy wargame made by Games Workshop. We publish an e-zine, organise tournaments, and run the Australiasian Warhammer Fantasy Rankings.

Composition scoring systems at Warhammer Fantasy tournaments. Minimize
 
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Posted by: Andrew Galea Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:59:50 GMT

Lately it seems that everyone is talking about composition of armies and composition systems at tournaments. And there are an incredible amount of different views on the subject. The two things that are clear from these discussions are that firstly most people believe that some form of composition scoring is required at tournaments and secondly that people's ideas on what constitutes a well composed army is highly subjective as are the methods to measure it.

If we step back and take a look at the concept of composition and the need for it at tournaments we can conclude that due to the amount of variables in the game of Warhammer there are inherent flaws in army books. These flaws allow combinations of troops and magical items that can give one player what is perceived to be an unfair advantage over another in a given game. Games Workshop do receive a fair amount of criticism for their army book design due to the imbalance that some combinations of troops present. However the same people that criticise for this fact are the also the ones that cry foul when troop types are removed from a latest release and/or certain rules are "dumbed down", both of which are normally motivated by the need to remove imbalances.

We all love the fact that Warhammer is such an incredibly complex game with a huge amount of scope for individuality in army design. Having this variety is what makes it so hard to not introduce flaws in army books. I think we just have to accept that the possibility of over the top armies goes hand in hand with the game's mechanics and the elements of the game that we enjoy so much. We cannot necessarily have one without the other.

Which brings us back to the need for composition scoring in a competitive environment such as tournaments. The dilemma is devising a composition scoring system that allows players to express their creative side with army design, therefore ensuring variety, whilst still curbing armies that remove the enjoyment from a game of Warhammer for whatever reason.

I am not going to go into the various systems here suffice to say that I am a believer in peer judged composition. Many people opposed to peer judged composition systems point to the fact that players have their individual subjective views on what constitutes a well designed army. I don't refute that but in the end if it is not the players themselves that determine what is a well composed army, then who is? Just because you might not agree with a player's score, does that make it wrong? I think not. If a player judges an army more harsh than others or similarly more lenient for whatever their reasons are, then that is what the composition of the army is.

The main problem that I see exists in peer judged composition is that players have a different way of interpreting the scores. For example, take a sliding scale of 1 - 5. Some players might give out 5s for a standard list and punish "harder" lists by scoring them lower. Where others might award 3s for a standard list and judge "harder' or "softer" but scoring above or below this point. Therefore the two players are awarding different scores to armies that they perceive to be "normal". We don't care whether they are awarding a "3" or  "5", we care whether they feel the army is acceptable or not. And this is the problem.

Now there a very good method that overcomes the problem detailed above with peer based composition systems. And it is not new to the Australian tournament scene but somehow it failed to stick around after a very successful implementation a few years ago. The basic idea is to calculate what the average score each player hands out over the course of the tournament, and then award or deduct points to armies they have faced based on the deviation from this average. So lets go back to our example above.

Player A awards 5 scores of 5 and 1 score of 3. Therefore the average score they have handed out is 4.67. Therefore each player that received a 5 from this person will get +0.33 to their composition score. And the player whose army was awarded a 3 will receive -1.67 to their comp score.

Player B awards 4 scores of 3, 1 of 4 and 1 of 1. Therefore their average score they have handed out is 2.83. The 4 players that received a score of 3 will receive +0.17 to their composition score, the player that received a 4 will get +1.17 and finally the player that received a 1 will get -1.83.

In both cases above, it made no difference what number each player selected, it only mattered how different this was to the average score they gave out. I have played in a few tournaments years ago that used this system and it was extremely effective at awarding composition scores to the various armies.

Well that is my take on composition, and next year at Fortunes of War I intend to implement it. Lets see how that goes.

Andrew Galea

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Re: Composition scoring systems at Warhammer Fantasy tournaments.    By Gorfog on Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:26:49 GMT
I have to say dont normally repsond to these but this is one thing that is very dear to me when playing warhamme. Shortly i will be attending the GT in Nottingham and while there will be a good selection of balanced and well rounded armies I also know there will be some that will be at the extremes to say the least. The problem with this event is there is no scoring for people to judge other armies and therefore players can effectively use what they like within normal restrictions including special characters. I do believe any good tournament should use a composition scoring system provided the system allows players to use some judgement. I would be interested to see how the above system works on a large tournament and the influence it has on the overall result. Looking at the army list published on irresistible force you certainly encourage more balanced play. Well done.

Re: Composition scoring systems at Warhammer Fantasy tournaments.    By Gorfog on Fri, 17 Aug 2007 02:42:19 GMT
Do you judge the composition before or after the game? Are you basing the score on just what you can see and not on any hidden or magic items?

Other ideas....    By Succotash on Fri, 17 Aug 2007 09:03:38 GMT
For true competitive play the Australians really had it right with their master's tournament where they had the first day of people playing other people's armies. Personally this is a thing i would like to see more of. In a tournament designed to see who is the best general a format like this pretty much negates any book/army advantage out there. It turns the tables on list design and forces people to think about how they would beat their own lists. It also really forces people to look at their list and army in general on a whole. Did they try to abuse the system? They may have felt they didn't before they have to face their own list with some army less competitive. <br><br>Honestly as long as Warhammer lacks a clear language of design and a true balancing arrangement nothing will ever be truly fair. So what we have to do is get past that point. If tournaments are designed to figure out who is the best general then we need to design a system where all people are on the same starting basis. If we want to make tournaments more about having fun and the hobby part then we need to really get rid of the "tournament" mentallity and design a new system of organized warhammer events. <br><br>Player judge composition, army composition checklists, and judge delegated composition all really fail at the starting point i.e. the game designers. As it has been shown there is a failure of each system of judging comp. It could be differing views on what is fair and balanced or even "chipmunking" by players to effect the winning general. If the game designers continue to avoid the problems of tournament play and the game they designed then we the player have little chance to correct it. Heck I have almost felt that the game designers go out of their way to confuse the issue by doing things that inherently unbalance the game *cough* special characters being in the main list *cough* *cough*. <br><br>Ideas for tournaments that might change the concept of composition.<br><br>The blind army selection used by the australians in their masters tournament.<br><br>Standardized lists tournament where each army is given 1-3 (or more) standardized army lists designed to be fair probably by the tournament organizer and published in advance. <br><br>Army scenario predesigned. A system similar to bridge tournaments where people have the same chances as their opponents. Two forces are preset up in a scenario that will be repeated multiple times. Each table has two armies already set up (or just pre selected) and each general must play out a "fair and equal" battle in which the scores are later ranked against other generals. <br><br>All of these systems take something away from the hobby part of the army design. Is it a good way to go about determining who is the best general. Yes probably, will it be more fun for the people involved? That has yet to be determined. The honor system that we use now has many flaws and in truth we like it that way. It allows us to gripe about the system when we lose and yet still give us the flexibility we love before hand. It does make for a number of rock, paper, and scissors match ups and we expect that. As I said before until the game designers step up to the plate it is pretty much out of our hands. So either design a new system or accept we we have.<br><br>

Re: Composition scoring systems at Warhammer Fantasy tournaments.    By agalea on Fri, 17 Aug 2007 08:55:05 GMT
Normally we judge composition before the game and also we play open lists. There has been a lot of discussion regarding the virtues of open or closed lists, but it is generally accepted easier to swap lists before the game so that each player can peruse the other's. Then composition marks are awarded.<br><br>Marking composition after the game can sometimes be skewed by the result. Which is not ideal hence the reason that composition is marked before.<br><br>Andrew

Re: Composition scoring systems at Warhammer Fantasy tournaments.    By catpipe2012 on Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:04:27 GMT
I really think comp will become less of an issue as more and more armies are revised for 7th ed. I think the last few lists that GW has released have been some of the most balanced lists I have seen. Combine that with the changes from 6th to 7th ed Its very hard to create a truly cheey list that will win regardless of the quality of the general. <br>Here in Australia I think we have such a great calibre of players who play hard and competitively but also fairly which goes along way to make any comp system at tournies work.

Why it wont work...    By Asger on Sat, 31 May 2008 10:07:39 GMT
Hi all, apologies for the 9 months delayed reply.<br>I'm looking around for different system and I stumbled upon this one. Initialy it looks interesting, but there is a, fairly simple, reason that it doesn't work. The reason is that the score each player gets, depends on the armies their opponent have faced, hardly desirable.<br>Let me give an extreme example, though it is always relevant also in moderate situations. Imagine Andrew playing in a 6 game tournament, and that he plays 6 games against ultimate filth which he all scores a minimum 1pts. Each of these players will receive no benefit or loss from the score Andrew has given them. Next tournament Andres goes to, he plays 6 times against the nicest, most fluffy army lists possible, and scores them all a max score of 5pts. They get no benefit or loss either.<br><br>No one would argue that the guys in the first example didn't deserve a punishment, and no one would argue that the guys in the second example didn't deserve a reward. Yet this system scores them identical.


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