Irresistible Force is a site dedicated to Warhammer Fantasy , the table top fantasy wargame made by Games Workshop. We publish an e-zine, organise tournaments, and run the Australiasian Warhammer Fantasy Rankings.
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| Posted by: Andrew Galea |
Fri, 22 Feb 2008 11:54:54 GMT |
A hot topic of late is handling the abundance of professionally painted armies that are appearing at tournaments around the place. For many years tournament organisers have been placing more and more emphasis on the quality of painted armies and the amount that having a well painted army contributes to a player's overall score. Whilst the original intention was to promote painted armies and therefore increase the general enjoyment of players there were a few overzealous tournament organisers that ran a few tournaments where the emphasis on painting was way too high and detracted from the events.
A bi-product of this was the increase in demand for good painters to paint armies for other people. The increase is so great that in the current environment it is not unusual for up to a 3rd of the tournament field to be using an army that they themselves did not paint. The steady rise in ability of the average tournament player has seen a vast closing in the gap between the top tier of players and the 2nd tier, therefore making more valuable any extra points that can be gained in the soft scores components of Sports, Composition and Painting.
Whilst we have enjoyed the increase in both well composed armies and sporting conduct there has been a certain amount of tension arising from players gaining an advantage by fielding an army they did not paint. There has been much debate from both camps as to the merits or otherwise of rewarding players for painting they did not do and I don’t want to rehash old arguments here. However I would like to comment on what I deem to be a worrying trend of severely penalising players who play with professionally painted armies.
In the last 6 months two of the biggest tournaments in Australia (Orktoberfest and CanCon) have placed harsh penalties on professionally painted armies. And the ConVic 2008 player pack just released similarly penalises them also. I think we are seeing an unfortunate trend where going full circle we are now over penalising these players. When so much emphasis is placed on whether you painted the army yourself or not it opens up an array of related issues including the cases where players have painted some but not all of the army, players have painted the army but borrowed a unit or two from a friend and players that just lie and say they have painted the army but in fact have not. In my opinion we are creating problem for the tournament scene out of nothing.
I agree that a player that spends hours and hours of his/her time to paint their own army has some grounds for grievance when another player who paid someone to do it gets a far better painting score and therefore overall position in the tournament than themselves. However I think there is a happy medium in between that system and one where the pro-painted army player basically has no chance of winning the event.
My suggestion is that the tournament system award 2 bonus points (to the painting score) if you have painted the army yourself. This is a small enough bonus to not be too much of a concern with regards to the earlier issues discussed, as if you have painted part of the army yourself you will get 1 point instead of 2 or 0. It is also small enough bonus that a player will be less inclined to lie about whether they have painted the army or not. However 2 bonus points will relieve the concerns of most reasonably minded players who paint armies themselves but not to the professional standard of others who pay for it.
Any other system (penalising either side) simply creates tension in the community and invariably could result in someone not attending a tournament and in the worse case walk away from the hobby. Both of which I believe we should all work together to avoid. Attending a tournament where there is a host of beautifully painted armies and playing games against those armies is a fantastic element of our hobby, and one that we should encourage, regardless of who painted them. I also get pleasure from talking to a player that has spent many hours painting their own army when their pride is evident for all to see. So lets not create a massive issue out of something that really should be treated sensibly.
The concept of having a simple painting criteria where most armies get top marks with a few bonus points for exceptional work (and/or painting it yourself) combined with a separate painting prize for the fantastic armies is the way forward. And working with tournament organisers so that their player packs follow this line of thinking will make the tournament scene a more enjoyable place for us all. |
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Re: Pro Painted Armies... |
By Andrew Old on
Mon, 25 Feb 2008 07:04:37 GMT |
| Andrew, with the greatest of respect, I think your suggestion is another way of saying "take painting out of the podium calculation and stick it to the side where it belongs". If most armies get top marks, what's the point of giving marks?<br><br>If we embrace the idea that this is a multi-faceted hobby, and there's more to it than just winning games (and it seems we do, from the tourneys that have comp scores, sports scores, painting scores, etc) then we should embrace them all.<br><br>Having seen some of the talk around this issue recently, it's never the guys who place in the middle of the pack complaining about painting scores, it's the guys who are near the podium, or who achieve the podium in other tourneys, who feel they deserve the spot because they won more games, but were gypped, or missed out, or robbed, or it was a mistake, because they don't see painting as of equal importance.<br><br>Let me counter this view with that of a spectator. What attracts people to our hobby? GW don't show videos of thrilling games in their windows, they stick painted models in there. People who attend cons and wander through are impressed with beautiful miniatures and tables and the visual aspect of the game, not the numbers on the dice or tape measurements. I can show family and workmates my models and they all "ooh and ahh" but when I tell them I rolled three sixes to kill the Daemon Prince and then three 1s on my save... blank<br><br>If I paint my army and select the list and smile graciously and laugh along with my opponents all the way through but I hire Jeff Traish to play all my games for me, do I deserve the battle points?<br><br>If I hire Nathan Khawly to play host to my opponents, but am an arsehole myself, do I deserve the sportsmanship points?<br><br>To me it's all the same. If I'm a great painter, a top bloke and have a nice soft list but can't play my way out of a paper bag, I don't get a podium spot. If I'm a killer player with a beautiful and balanced army but a complete arsehole, I don't deserve a podium place.<br><br>If I can't hire people to get me battle, comp or sports points, I shouldn't be able to hire them to get me painting points.<br><br>If we're worried about keeping people in the hobby because they might feel alienated at tourneys because they don't paint their army, then we're worried about the wrong thing. We don't worry about alienating people who can't play! |
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Re: Pro Painted Armies... |
By Murishido on
Mon, 25 Feb 2008 07:03:38 GMT |
| Final paragraph I think sums up the most amicable solution perfectly |
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Re: Pro Painted Armies... |
By Marcelo Rouco on
Mon, 25 Feb 2008 07:04:06 GMT |
| You are right to say that there has been heated discussion on the pro painted issue. What you are calling for is a middle ground. Enven though, as someone who is in the pro camp who believes painting scores are there to encourage the best looking armies possible, I am not happy about being penalised 2 points, I would still go to the tournment to enjoy the event and accept it as a middle ground. However, as you rightly point out, the extremes seen in last year's Oktoberfest and to my dismay, this year's ConVic are pushing players like me out of the tourney. As ConVic's 07 winner, I was planning to travel to Vic in 08 to defend my title, but after only just seeing the painting score I've decided not to go. This has turned into a pro painted witch hunt by some TOs and it is really disappointing. |
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Re: Pro Painted Armies... |
By Sebastian on
Mon, 25 Feb 2008 07:04:21 GMT |
| So,<br><br>This arises also the question of player time. Say that I'm a busy executive doing 100 hour weeks. Do I have time to paint my own army? It's enough of a drain to take myself away from work for 3-4 days to attend an event.<br><br>Yet, I am being penalised for not painting my own army?<br><br>Not exactly fair is it. |
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Re: Pro Painted Armies... |
By horus500 on
Sun, 24 Feb 2008 22:43:21 GMT |
| Over a few quiet beverages I discussed this matter with some fellow gamers. I believe our general concemsus was that whilst pro-painted armies are both beautiful and essential to the hobby, they really shouldn't have any or at least be capable of deciding best the best general at a tournament.<br>The problem arises that pro-painted armies look great and everyone loves looking at them. They capture our imaginations and for those of us that paint our own models, they provide must needed inspiration. I for one would hate to see them cease to appear at tournaments. Having said that why should they assist the owner win the tournament? Well ultimately it's about the hobby, and as I mentioned before these armies contribute immessurable to the overall hobby. There's a reason GW's propaganda includes pictures of expertly painted miniatures and not the crap the rest of us come up with. I'm sure more than a few of us got into Warhammer after seeing a well painted and excellently presented army when we were introduced to the game. Far fewer would have inspired to play warhammer after seeing somepoorly painted blob. <br>If tournament organisers wish to penalise players or not reward players for having pro-painted armies then perhaps a more suitable penalty would be simply to stop those players who did not paint their own armies from winning the beauty pagent. |
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Re: Pro Painted Armies... |
By Shags on
Mon, 25 Feb 2008 08:41:23 GMT |
| I think possibly the best system has been overlooked (and not just because it comes from my club).<br><br>Legends (and prior to that Pizzacons etc) always offered painting points based on the percentage of army painted. This always makes it possible for everyone (pro-painted or otherwise) to get full points so long as the effort is put in. <br><br>A beauty pageant can be held still for the best painted army and it's up to TO's to decide wether pro-painted armies can be included in this but that is a seperate matter and the results of that shouldn't be included in the results of the tourney.<br><br>As for peoples livelihoods being affected, the above solution shouldn't change it much. The same people are going to still buy pro-painted armies. <br><br> |
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Re: Pro Painted Armies... |
By Stryder on
Mon, 25 Feb 2008 08:41:05 GMT |
| I think systems like vigilance and other like tourneys are the way to go. Everyone if they followed the criteria should get 18-19 with a good, solid paint job. Pro painted and very good armies were able to get 20. And even if you followed all the criteria it wasn't really that hard to get a 20, you just had to put in a bit extra and do a major conversion. Pretty simple. Pro painted army owners don't get upset about getting docked, and other people can't get upset about pro painted getting full points and effectively buying tourney points, because they could have gotten them themselves if they followed the criteria and made sure they fulfilled it all. <br><br>I just don't think we should alienate people from tourneys. As much as people say they get pro painted armies to put a good looking army on the field, this is not the case in the majority. I know of several people who were explaining they were getting their army pro painted purely for the purpose of getting extra points in tourneys to podium, and now they are saying they are doing it only to get a good looking army on the board and the points don't really matter. Losing out to someone because they paid a lot of money to get more points upsets people, getting docked points because you can't paint but you still wanted a good looking army upsets others. The only way to go is as mentioned in the last paragraph. Will still upset people in both camps but I feel is a happy middle ground. |
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Re: Pro Painted Armies... |
By Mark C on
Wed, 05 Mar 2008 07:43:34 GMT |
| The way that we have done it with a couple of local events is as follows.<br><br>We have painting as a small percentage (say 5% - 10%) of the overall score for the main event. Its fairly easy to get 8 or 9 out of 10 if the entire army is painted 3 colours, models are based and no unpainted/just undercoated models. For this portion of your score, it shouldn't matter who painted it. The points are there to encourage/reward people to bring something thats nice to look at.<br><br>Then in parallel with the main event we have a separate painting competition where it is clearly stated which models aren't your own painting. To win this comp, most or all the painting should be your own work. This is to reward the players who put in the effort, but we don't automatically exclude someone because their wife/kids/mother painted a model or two or if they borrowed a unit. |
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Re: Pro Painted Armies... |
By agalea on
Wed, 19 Mar 2008 23:17:46 GMT |
| More comments about this blog entry can be found here: http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=49135&hl=Blog |
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Re: Pro Painted Armies... |
By Tendril on
Sat, 03 May 2008 09:01:16 GMT |
| The problem is that there's a section of the community that just doesn't have time to paint armies but really enjoys playing and wants to be competitive on the scene. I fall in the this catagory as I work full time 13 hour days in a mangement role and I just do not have the time along with family commitments to paint an army.<br><br>I work very hard to make the money that is used to have the armies well painted so that others at the events may enjoy the minitues and I find it very harsh that I am taken out of any hope of a placing because of it. I no longer attend events that give no points for pro-painted armies.<br><br>The intended result of the painting scores when introduced was to give the other players at the event a great army to look at across the table rather than undercoated/bare minitures, it was never to rate the individual as a painter (that is the realm of the golden daemon and similar events). A pro-painted army not only meets this criteria but in many cases does it better than an army that is self painted. |
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Re: Pro Painted Armies... |
By Tendril on
Sat, 03 May 2008 09:01:22 GMT |
| Just as a quick addition: I love playing against other pro-painted armies, it can be the difference between being slaughtered and really disliking the game and being slaughtered by great looking models that you can at least appreciate while you're being torn apart. If I had to pick between playing an army just meeting the 3 colour standard or a pro-painted one I know which I'd enjoy more. |
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